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Leiywens' MS thread (retired thread)

Discussion in 'MS' started by Drew, May 12, 2017.

  1. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Got my soldering iron today, good to see my skills with have improved over the years, I still can't solder for shit, but at least I didn't burn myself a dozen times like I used to when I was younger :p

    So anyway, I soldered the cups to the gear axle but until I finish building the wheels sections up, there's no knowing if my soldering job is up to the task, I did power it up and it spun nice, although I believe it's likely to just fall apart first run with wheels attached. Oh well, time will tell.
    I built up the shock units temporarily and will look at mounting them once I get the new parts I ordered, although that might be about 2 weeks. 20170525_204315.jpg


    I've also rebuilt up the swing arms again this time with the plate in that the shocks will attach to, I decided to put it towards the bottom of the stack so as to allow enough clearance with the shell when the shock is pressed.

    20170525_204357.jpg
    20170525_204412.jpg

    So far this is where I'm at. Just waiting new parts for wheels. Need more ball bearing! Need at least 2 per wheel to stabilise the wheels enough. I do have thoughts about this whole build, but I'll save that for after I finish.

    20170525_204556.jpg
     
    Jan F likes this.
  2. Chris Lee Design

    Chris Lee Design Aluminum Lock Nut

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    You need your track already! I want to see this thing run!
     
  3. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Haha, even if I get the track, I still got to wait like 2 weeks for the extra parts and bearings.
    I was thinking of maybe getting this though, just a simple cheap track to test on. I hear it's pretty bad quality and prone to breaking in the box though, but only £20. This scan2go is basically a gimmick mini4wd... so I'd imagine the track is the same size as tamiya.



    [​IMG]


    Oh, forgot, I just received the parts for the pivot damper, so I'll probably make that this afternoon.
     
  4. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    So built up the pivot dampers. Was a lot easier to make than I figured it would be.

    20170526_195545.jpg 20170526_195558.jpg




    I went a head and set up the rear stay, I think I'll need to drill a couple holes to secure it with a couple more screws. I'll look into it tomorrow. I'll also work out how to attach the front pivot tomorrow.

    20170526_201809.jpg 20170526_201825.jpg 20170526_201842.jpg
     
  5. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    As in my last post, I worked on securing the rear stay and mounting the front. I began by trimming down the front to accept the pivots, and then drilled the holes in the back bumper to better secure the position of the rear stay.

    20170527_160022.jpg 20170527_163636.jpg 20170527_164616.jpg


    I then set about doing the under guard and brakes. I figured I'd make the rear spring mounted so it's easily adjustable, will decide later when I can test if I'll keep it or not.

    20170527_174554.jpg 20170527_174600.jpg 20170527_174621.jpg


    Final state so far. Just waiting on a few more parts to arrive to finish the wheel stabilisation and mounting. On another note, I ordered a hex crimping tool, all the static crimpers around my area didn't have what I was looking for. The one I ordered is sort of like auto sizing ratchet macdoodad. I figure that might be better to crimp the alu spacers to fit snug with the axle. Anyway, that will come after I finish setting it up as is. I know this is starting to look over the top, and quite frankly, it is, but I'm having fun and that's what's important! Again, there's more I want to go into and my thoughts on this build, but will wait until this has been finished as a v.1 build.

    20170527_182022.jpg
     
  6. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Quick post. After lazing around, I decided to do a quick suspension mock up to find out what I need to do/prepare.




    So, a couple issues. I need to trim the area where the shock sits, as you can see, it's not straight. I'm now conflicted if I should use ball caps or wait for the ball link mass damper for the plastic connectors, think I'll wait for now.
    Might need more screws to hold the arms together :confused:
    But the biggest issue I came across so far is that I've over widened the slits in the cups....so naturally, the bone rod falls out :eek:
    A few things to work out.
     
  7. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    So half my parts arrived today, still waiting on the ball bearings and more spacers (yep, I ruined them :oops:).
    Still need to figure out a better way of mounting the cups when I've remade them.
    But today, I need to cut new swing arms for the rear using the second HG bumper set (the stock abs plastic arms snapped too easy) and I can mostly set up the suspension and wheel hub, so I may make a better suspension test video later.

    On another note, I got another idea into my head :confused:
    I was wondering about making a damper system that allows the car to throw itself. I know there's the front body damper system, but that seems to make the car flip front down. I was hoping of something that would allow the car to remain more stable in the air.
    The idea comes from thinking about when I used to do long jump at school, when you jump, you use your body like a bow to throw yourself further forward. I suppose in a vehicle sense it would be sort of like a Trebuchet on wheels.
    I have an idea on how it could work by utilising a rear mounted full body damper system to actuate a sort of pivot system to "throw" some damper weights mounted on ball bearings.

    I just wanted to make a note of this somewhere that I could remember. Seems like a cool idea in theory, but in practise? Well that's another matter.
     
  8. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Soooo, after spending a few hours in the kitchen, I've only got a few photos today.



    Just preparing a few items again. I've cut down the thread on the threaded shafts which will be the core of the suspension.
    I've gone with the ball link mass damper plastic linkages, I've cut the head off, leaving a little stem and drilled 2mm holes through each of the heads. The rest of their shafts I'll save as they can be trimmed and used as shell holders etc.
    The wheel mounts I've trimmed down the area denoted by the red rings.
    20170531_163955.jpg


    After trimming them down and beginning to work the holes, I found that it started to snap a little too easy, so I've gone and used some epoxy resin to reinforce the all the joints as below. Using Araldite, so it takes 14hrs to set, but when it has, these won't snap anymore.

    20170531_192251.jpg




    Since I can't go ahead and attach the wheel mounts, I had to finish up with just installing the shocks for now. When pressed, the shaft goes neatly up into the shell.

    20170531_192317.jpg



    So, my to do list. Finish the wheel mounts, need to drill out a 6mm hole in the back of each of them to mount the ball bearing and still waiting extra screw sets to be able to mount them..
    Will need to remake all the cups, but I've got to wait on receiving new spacers.
    She's starting to look real nice. I have doubts about performance right now being a V.1 build, but one step at a time I guess.
     
  9. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Another small update. Still waiting on parts unfortunately, but from scrounging around, I was able to find a few screws to build up the suspension better and also test the wheel stability.
    I was able to finish once wheel mount to test a little.

    20170601_211010.jpg 20170601_211028.jpg


    So I've tested the wheel stability, it's a lot more stable with the wide tread hub than the standard. That said, I've had to drill the backside of the wheel hub in order to mount the 620 bearing. I only had 2 bearings left I could use, so I've been able to mock up a single wheel for testing. I did not secure it yet, as I've still got to make new cups, so it still wobbles a little, but I think once it's fully assembled, the wobble will disappear. I've also got to wait for new screws and lock nuts to properly assemble the whole wheel mount.
    Anyway, here's a couple little videos of testing.


     
  10. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Little update. Some of the new parts arrived...well almost all the final parts needed! I think you can tell what my next build is going to be....
    I found a really nice inner suspension build that I will take great care to replicate with full tamiya parts, but that's going to be quite some time a way, need to save money.
    Other than that, got the screws, some more wheel shafts, wheels, ball bearing which I immediately put in to soak in zippo and more spacers which I sorted out and put into their respective containers (build parts and all other spacers!)
    20170605_144540.jpg


    So, I wanted a little help deciding while I have time waiting for the hex crimp tool and tires.
    I can't decide between the solid hub and 5 star wheels. Any one that's watching this thread got any idea which to use? At the moment I'm slightly leaning towards the solid hub for rigidity, but the 5 star looks better. Let me know what any of you guys think.

    20170605_145251.jpg


    Once the new tires arrive (hard offset tires), my plan is to take which ever wheels decided above and trim down the inner axle mount to roughly where the red line in the box is. There's a reason for this. Since I've had to go with the wide tread wheel mounts in order to properly stabilise the axle, the wheel base is super wide, almost as wide as the guide rollers. So in order to bring that down to a more reasonable width, I want to trim down the axle mount so that the wheel slightly cups around the wheel mount.
    If you're not sure what I'm getting at, I'll explain again with photos later.

    20170605_145358.jpg


    Anywho, since the new parts arrived, I can finally lockdown the shock setup (not building the entire swing arm mount yet) and trim the slots in the new spacers to make new cups.
    I can't mount the cups yet until I get the hex crimp tool. This will be used to shape the spacer cups to the axle shaft before being attached with thread lock. This should give a really good snug fit and hopefully prevent them from flying off.

    Almost there guys....unfortunately, no track yet, so even when it's finished, there's not going to be running video yet :(
    But I'll see what I can do.
     
  11. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    A little more.
    Rebuilding the shocks to their final form.
    20170605_183259.jpg
    Replacing the plastic wheel bearings with red 3mm spacer at the top of the shaft.

    20170605_183547.jpg 20170605_184130.jpg
    All shocks are fitted, oiled/greased and good to go.
    Below is the wheel mount, I don't have a milling machine so I've had to slowly drill out the needed 6mm hole for the bearings on the back of the wheel mount. The front is the same 6mm that is untouched.

    20170605_190456.jpg


    In my last post I touched on the issue with wheel base width. Below is the issue. The extended mount is bad enough, but some wheels also have the axle mount protrude from the wheel. This is adding far too much width to the wheel base and needs to be shortened.

    20170605_191155.jpg

    This is what I was referring to of how I wanted to solve the wheel base issue. I would need to open up the axle hole all the way through the wheel, then trim down the backside of the wheel until the mount fits within the diameter of the tire. This should also make it easier to actuate the suspension.

    20170605_191243.jpg






    For a little bonus, I just wanted to see what the leo would look like on the FISS. It's a much fuller body and looks pretty damn good. 20170605_190638.jpg



    But it would definitely need modding unlike the nitrage shell as it don't sit nicely on the chassis. That said, it would look pretty awesome with the full suspension on show.:cool:
    20170605_190652.jpg
     
  12. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Little update, that track in the last post on the first page if you remember, I was able to find some in stock and decided to give it a shot. It's only £20, but I've heard a lot of bad things about it. Still, it'll probably be ok for testing while I wait on the company building the wooden track for me. Will have to see, should get it on Friday.
     
  13. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Another small update, hopefully the last one for the F.I.S.S build.
    Just received the hex crimp tool. I'm hoping this will allow me to crimp the spacer to fit the axle so that it will have a snug fit and hopefully using thread lock, it should have a nice connection to the axle that it won't come loose.


    [​IMG]


    So while I can get on with replacing the cups on the gear axle, I'm thinking of waiting just a little longer for the wheel axles. I remembered I ordered fresh offset tires and a one way wheel system. So before I make a choice on wheels, I want to wait until I can see this one way wheel system before I commit.

    Look forward to more pictures and perhaps, the end of the build for the V.1 iteration.
     
  14. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Hehehe....mwahahaha....*ahem*

    Sorry, had to get that out.
    So a little more done. Just crimped the fresh cups/spacers. Took the old ones off and mounted the new ones to the gear axle.
    Seems to have worked out better and a bit easier. Here's a few pics.



    I used a spare shaft to use as insert for the spacer/cup while crimping. Had to use pliers to remove it after.
    [​IMG]


    Then used a wheel axle section to get the cups to slide on and off nicely. It does and it remains snug to turn the axle nicely by hand.
    As I said, already mounted the first 4 to the chassis.
    Will have more on this once it's mounted I've finished mounting wheels.
    [​IMG]


    So far it's not doing so bad. I'm also dropping a small video clip of testing the motor to sound check the setup. Initially it didn't sound good, but I had the cups too tight on the axle so it was pinching the chassis. After fixing that, it sound decent, obviously could be better, but I'll take it for now, since I know what the issues are.



    Actually sounds better in real life than it does in video.
     
  15. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Not quite finished, just waiting for the thread lock to cure, which will be about 24 hours. So I will finish setting up the car tomorrow.

    But for now, more pics of the, kinda, finished wheels. I think I didn't quite take a few of them deep enough, hopefully it will be enough though.

    So for the pics, the orange wheel was a test, after that the black ones are carbon reinforced wheels, takes for ever to grind them suckers down.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Will edit this tomorrow with further pics and hopefully finished car.

    Edit: Slight ooops, mounted wheels with dock rod, tried to force it for the hole I wanted.....wheel mount broke again >.<
    Will look at shortening the dock rods tomorrow/friday, need new drill bits to make pin holes.
    Also will replace pins with the spring from inside the motors. Slightly bigger, so hopefully a little stronger.

    Also spent all day cutting chassis for savleo. Will be making the white MS from the damper thread.
    Don't have parts for it, but at least I can smile to myself while looking at all the parts I've broken....ahem, cut.

    Edit2:
    So since I need to wait on drill bits to make new holes in the shortened dock rod, I decided to go ahead and finish assembling without them to see the end result.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    It really sits too low on the low profile wheels. Guess I should have gone with the large dia wheels and barrel tires after all.
    At any rate, I've identified several issues overall which really should be corrected. But I decided I will just keep the car as is. It is a V.1 after all. I can pick up what I've learned from this build experience and in the future make a much better car, who knows, maybe I'll tear it down and rebuild it with the better setup but I'd have to work out what parts I'll be needing for that again (hint: 4x MS multi brake to replace the frp chips I made). Still, I'm happy with how it turned out, even if it's not quite right. And it looks pretty awesome :)

    [​IMG]


    Edit: Just finished shortening the dock rods.....and I found another issue, I haven't aligned the cups properly, so although yes it works, the wheels vibrate like crazy until the dock rod gets thrown out.
    Sooooo.....no video until I get around to V.2......will strip down the arm mounts and rebuild in a different method using the MS multi brake sets. Will have to see about wheels, after doing drop test, no it doesn't bounce at all, yes it keeps bottoming out and screws keep hitting the surface, but at least it's not bouncing!

    Won't be able to get parts for V.2 for a month or so, so this is getting shelved in it's box for now.
    At least it looks good!
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  16. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Reserved for future video posts (test runs)
     
  17. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Thoughts and Opinions.

    So I figured I'd start pointing out some of my thoughts on this build. What I could do better and other methods of building.
    This is completely subjective on my part, if you ever attempt to make a F.I.S.S build, I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions.

    So there's four areas so far in which I want to go into further detail.
    1.Gear axle mounting.
    2.Cups.
    3.Dock bone.
    4.Swing arm mounts.
    5.Wheel hub mount.
    6.Wheel size matters!



    1. Gear Axle Mount.

    So let me start with the gear axle mount.
    Below you can see what I did. This is one method. My issue with this was that once I'd set it up and went to sleep, the part I used to keep the bearing mounts in position popped out, so naturally they settled into a less than optimal position. I used super glue to bond so there wasn't much I could do to clean it up and reposition the parts.
    I think it would have been better using epoxy resin, given it's long curing time, I would have been able to correct this. I would also have used the bearings and axle to give proper positioning as I wouldn't have to worry about glue fumes or bits of glue dirt seizing up the bearings.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    On the other hand, I think the best way of setting up the gear mounts would be like this:

    [​IMG]

    I couldn't put mounts in the proper place because the clips are still on, but you can see what I'm getting at.
    This would require much less modding and would be much neater and tidier. The only down side would be that the dock bone would need to be shortened. This is what I'd prefer to do either next time round or when I come back around to tidy up this build. I do have 2 spare HG bumper kits, so I got the parts.



    2. Cups.

    Now the cups pretty much came out as I wanted. The 6mm alum spacer works quite well. The problem is with the mounting. Originally I wanted to go with the grub screw method to make it cleaner and easier to remove the cups for maintenance. This really didn't work as planned.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The issues faced were that the alum is too soft that most of the time, the thread would get stripped. However when it did work, once the car is powered up, the screw coming loose just a tiny fraction would have the whole assembly flying apart. That could be over come with using thread lock, but you'd still have to contend with the first issue, stripped thread. Could this method work? Sure. Reliably? Not so much.

    I then tried to solder. This is a very viable method to attach the cups to the axle. But it would be harder to remove, you'd need good soldering skills and a good quality solder iron. Using the previously made cups with grub screw hole, you could tin the axle, slip on the cup then apply solder using the grub screw hole.

    My current method I'm trying is to crimp the spacer to fit the axle more snug. Crimping is something that really should have been done from the start!! Would highly recommend anyone making a F.I.S.S do this. I'm now attaching the cups after being crimped with thread lock. I haven't tested yet since I haven't made another wheel setup to mount yet. I will update this later.



    3. Dock Bones.

    Probably the most difficult to create without the proper tools (I didn't have proper tools).
    So this is the method I went with since it was easier and simpler for me, not having the proper tools.

    [​IMG]


    Obviously the pins are not tamiya official parts. So you could use the two below methods to create the dock bones.


    This first method, you could use either threaded shafts or gear shafts. Either way, to make the pin for the dock bone head, you'd have to shave down one gear shaft and cut it in half, that will give you the two pins for one dock bone. Then it's a matter of drilling the hole in the gear shaft/threaded shaft and mount the pins.

    [​IMG]


    The other method is a little more to it. Below you'll see that there is apparently a couple wire springs holding in the magnet of the motor. You would need to remove these and use them for the pins.
    The brass tube that is used, is the brass tube shaft used in the double alu roller.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I would really love to make better dock bones. But again I'll look into this at a later date. If the axle mount is changed like I wrote earlier, then the dock bone would need to be cut a bit shorter before inserting the pins.



    4.Swing Arm Mounts.

    If you've read through my build, you'll see I used a lot of frp pieces and alum spacers. I had a build methodology in mind when I started and was committed to before I found more information on build methods.
    If you've seen the Damper Compendium thread, you'll see there is a couple different methods to making the F.I.S.S. Below is probably the most simple, lighter and much cleaner method.

    [​IMG]

    Essentially, the part I've ringed is from the MS Multi Brake (
    Tamiya Item #15399 | JR MS Chassis Brake Parts Set). You'd probably need 4 packs to get enough of the piece needed to use as the mount. It's much cleaner, much easier, but my only issue is it's strength. I don't think that would be an issue though. Again, I might look into changing this into my build later.



    5.Wheel hHub Mounts.

    So, after much thought, I've decided to add this to the post.
    After assembling the complete mounts last night to work out all the final washers/spacers/etc needed, I had an accident. Me, being my complete fumbling self, dropped the car. Result.....both front wheel mounts broken >.<;

    Below is the image of one of the parts before I dropped it.

    [​IMG]

    The blue line denotes roughly where you'd need to trim to:
    A) Leave space for the cup and it's dock bone pins (if they're a bit long)
    B)Needs to be trimmed back to be able to drill the 6mm hole needed for the ball bearing.

    This leaves roughly the red line area with very little connection which may snap along the line. Although if you are using precision tools, you might be able to avoid trimming the plastic to begin with. Anyway, due to this accident, it got me thinking what you could do as a possible reinforcement to avoid such issues in the future.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    If you were to take the wheel mount you intended to use (using the normal tread mount for example), and mount it normally to the chassis then cut around the red lines, you should have a much stronger wheel hub mount. It would mean having to work out the positioning of the swing arms however, or perhaps use two pieces of frp to make swing arms that fit flush with the unit on both sides..
    That said, in the first image you would still need to trim a little before mounting in order to drill the 6mm hole for the ball bearing mount.
    In the second image, the blue line indicated the extra reinforcement where you use glue to bond and strengthen the hub mount.



    6. Wheel Size Matters!

    I've come to find that yes, it really does matter. I think it most like is best to be running large dia wheels with barrel tires. I've used low profile carbon wheels with offset tires, but the wheel mounts just barely sit above the floor, not to mention when suspension is pressed, it bottoms out for too quick.





    So far these are my thoughts and opinions. I will update this after I've finished the build. But so far these are the issues on my mind with this build.
    Is it a viable build? You bet. Is it a viable race build? Possibly if done more precise than I have done. Is it worth the time and effort? If you love building cars, most definitely. I've had a lot of fun building this, it's not cheap, but very fun and gets you using your brain.
    It's a very technical car to build overall, so it does need quite some commitment. But I'd recommend anyone that loves building cars give it a shot.


    Edit: So yea, first build, end result, not so great, but it's a learning curve. I decided not to go ahead and rework the things that need redoing. Instead, I'll leave it for the future, I'll tear it down and rebuild it with the different methods above. Overall, I've had a lot of fun building this, even if I'm not completely happy with the end result, I know what I have to do next time.

    But before that, my next build is the Leo!
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  18. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Made updates to previous posts.

    I said building the F.I.S.S is about precision to make it run effectively. Obviously I didn't do a very precise job. It works kinda, not very great, lots of things misaligned. Yes it works on drop test....kinda, yes it works under power.....kinda.
    Anyway, I've put that in my edited post up there somewhere.
    Saving up for parts to do V.2 to get this working properly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  19. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    Was messing around about an hour ago, I saw this video a while back and felt like checking it out.




    I decided to use hex pole stand offs as they fit the peg holes perfectly and provide a nice surface for the wheel mount to slide on. The spring also fits them perfectly.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    As you can see it's quite clean and easy to build. Unfortunately, you need to cut the clips off and also part of the middle chassis around the gear cover in order to allow the gear mounts to move.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Due to needing to remove these sections, there's nothing to hold the end units on, therefore you'd need to either glue them to the middle chassis or you would have to find some way of attaching it with frp plates.

    Edit:

    So I cobbled together the car above with the suspension units and got this. Rather than gluing the units to the middle chassis, I tried to find away to attach the units so they'd be removable.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017
    chiefbeef likes this.
  20. Drew

    Drew Carbon Fiber Dust

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    I've got mail!

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Got the parts to redo the suspension on the FISS.
    Also got most of the parts for the Leo build.
    A few extra bits in there, still waiting on the other parts I ordered to come into stock so I can get them also.
    Expect some updating on the FISS in the next few days.
     

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